I was in a group that was reorging constantly and there were frequent management changes, so it took all of the political skill I'd developed over the years to focus my GM on giving me that fucking promotion. One of my reports and I had that conversation not that long ago, and I explained to him that at 62, he can take on any task I'm asking him to do. I've been at the same level for 3.5 years (since I joined MSFT), and while I spent three of those in a group where almost noone at all got promoted (a group which has since essentially dissolved), I'm concerned that my level stagnation reflects poorly on me, even though I've been the major contributor on products that have earned 10x my total compensation package for MSFT. I would lay some level of accountability with management as well, though. As a member of the Microsoft UK Senior Leadership Team, Olaf leads Microsoft's retail and consumer goods . Therefore, our need for people who can collaborate across their own team, across disciplines, across org boundaries is greater than ever before. These posts are provided "as-is" with no warranties and confer no rights. My management tells me that this is normal and 2 years is "aggressive", but this is getting frustrating for me. as many others posters said: if you are worry too much about promotion chances are you will keep worrying. Tech savvy yet entrepreneurship minded hence able to see things from . Microsoft's senior positions start at level 63, according to the crowdsourced tech compensation website Levels.fyi. You should be on the same side. I think your comments on level 63 were interesting. One thing I learned early is that the manager who says "I fought for you, sorry" is really saying "I'm too weak to make the case." If only your manager knows you then it is unlikely (at least on paper) that you will move beyond L62. Anyone moved from Office to some other part of company? There's a reason why they had the kind of brand loyalty that Microsoft can only dream of.Success in business comes from serving your customers, not about beating your competition. If you are not at the top of your stack rank for your level, you will not get the promo. That figures. If you have your mnanager in your pocket, you cna achieve greate heights in life. Contributed and exceeded in two roles - getting G-Star, then moved to another team with clear headroom and again, exceeded all commits and moved to L64. .css-1uhsr4o{margin-right:8px;}Get Paid, Not Played. I want them productive and about career success at Microsoft, especially your thoughts about achieving L63. I am soliciting ideas to reduce cost in this blog. Mini, as good as your writeup is, there is too much emphasis on this level promo business in MS, and I have seen my fair share of people that have been burnt by it. No matter how good you are, you will peak at some point and Microsoft will get rid of you. Think of the guy in the other company, the guy who is building something that competes with you, with your team. Should I trust my manager or is this just one more of his demonstrations of poor management skills? > Where did you hear this? * It is true that working for the promotion should not be your only driver, but it is important for it to be "a" driver -- of course you should enjoy what you are doing while working to achieve that next level, but remember that you are not there to become a bench-warmer. I also agree with the promotion-on-transfer point. Difference between getting promoted to L65 and joining as new FTE at L65 is HUGE. Mini could you please confirm or deny this. Don't be afraid to ask your manager some very direct questions.Don't force the issue. Know when your market worth changes with our verified salaries newsletter, See exactly how much your competitors pay. I thought what I did was valuable but in the end, it wasn't.The Microsoft up or out policy is the prime directive. And when the time comes, putting you up for a promotion to L63 is the first time your boss will be challenged by your skip-level and by your Aunt and Uncles (your boss's peers) about one of your promotions. Microsoft is so unique (and not in a good way) that you need to have blogs like this and focus on managing your career inside the hobbesian nightmare, rather than making good and cool software. I think that a lot of what you wrote was spot on, although the situation varies somewhat across the company. And I appreciate you screening out the non-productive whining posts. Senior Director Global Supply Chain Management transformation Supply Chain Operations SA Juli 2022-Heute9 Monate Lausanne Metropolitan Area Principal Consultant for an international. But power plays are at work and I get smacked when I try and take on extra work.So my question to the more experienced is this - how does one get the attention of management when they are focused on their own problems, their favorite underlings (of which I am not one), and when there is not enough work to go around?"1. Yes, "soft skills" count. Its above level 64 that things get tough, but getting to 64 isn't difficult. I've been 3.5 years at 62 and re-orged every year in mobile.Any ideas on how to carry greats results of one role into another through a re-org. Chief Executive Officer and Director. an ex-manager used to tell me, if the org needs him to sweep the floor, he would ensure that he would be the best sweeper in the world (no offense to my janitor friends, just an expression). And having a friend gain less than 3000/yr with a promo to Pricincipal cemented that. I got to point where I resented my manager so much I could barely talk to him. When it comes to where you actually rank and what you get paid that part is all that matters. In my group that's the really tough one. I think that a compentent dev not a superstar, who follows your advice should make it to 63. Microsoft Director level role - Level 66 - what should I expect from COMP sideYOE-15Current TC- 235k So once again, a big part of your job is learning how to become a ninja at firguring out what your management wants from you -- even when they haven't articulated it in any kind of measurable way -- and then doing it. Thanks.Sorry mini -- I meant the content of the comment I referenced, not the content of your original post (which I'm in violent agreement with). This is the first year I have spent more than 2 years at a level (L61) and still not gotten a promotion. Well, what about everyone else? At a intl sub level a 63 is two ic to the GM. did this post dieNo, the Mini-Electronic Brain did. Of course I ensure my manager and skip-level are aware of my contribution as a mentor, but I figure that as long as I'm in front of the wave, the best way for me to advance is to move the wave forward. Got two promotions - still level 60If you really got promoted twice then you would have advanced 2 levels.Either you didn't actually get promoted, or someone told you lies. Can any reader in Corp Sales Excellence(SMS&P) privide guidance on how to grow from 63 to 64 in that group. Maybe Steve Jobs' psychotic approach to managing by terror is not properly described in English as "junk yard dog mode" (standing up for what needs to be done vs. mind-numbing consensus wallowing). But if you start when you think you are ready and work with your manager toward the goal, you'll get there. He identified the common denominators in becoming an expert in practically any field. I haven't seen one single person getting hired below L63 in my group during last year. You dont have the same experience or abilities to perform in a core STB senior level role. Staff Software Engineer, Google Cloud Platforms, Senior Staff Software Engineer, Infrastructure, Principal Engineer, Developer Platform Systems, Senior Software Engineer, Mobile (Android), AR. Right now I am 56. great post mini. The soft skills definitely matter. I like such themes and everything that is connected to them. Eventually, their team will remove itself from his control through internal transfers to teams with better managers, and the asshole ends up getting canned in a re-org if he doesn't see the writing on the wall and use his Apple resume entry to jump to some other company.The fact that you praise someone for "junk yard dog mode" shows me that Microsoft has a fundamentally broken corporate culture, and that you are part of the problem.-jcr, Think of the guy in the other companyI don't like where this is goingThat is the guy to beat.No, No, NO!Think of the customer, not the competition! Microsoft Salary. Feedback is not detailed or actionable. 3. Sometimes the answer is, "well, we'll see" and other times the answer is, "if they'd only stop doing X and start doing Y on a sustained basis, I could see it". I hope Mini returns from his vacation soon :(The Windows division has a large number of people that were promoted to "Senior" PM/Test/Dev in the past year. L65 here, worked up from L59 (actually, 10 in the old system).The key is always to keep your eye on the goal. Let's apply that stick to cronyism and punishment based management practicies. Maybe you are ready, but you and your manager can plan what would be the assignment that would show that you're ready. He said this year he could only make strategic promotions, which sounded like promotions of people above 65. If you read CSPs this is the underlying message more or less. I have to agree with a few that have posted already. It sounds trite, but it's true. Amazon Unless you know for sure that your boss's answer is an immediate "Absolutely!" Of course, it goes without saying that if you dont have any substance you will likely hurt yourself badly and get ignored with vengeance next time. It would be the pinnacle of dumbness. Google, Go to company page Here are some things from my perspective.1. jcr said >Apple's about to ship Snow Leopard with no new features. because I have never seen the above formula fail with me in many years or people I know (a sample set of hundreds of person-years), I would agree, right now, level is deflated, 64, and 65 are real barriers, and salary level expand as well. They can be wrong about exactly what these flaws are, but they aren't wrong that you are flawed. You can be a genius of blinding brilliance, but if you come from a boring product team, you "don't have much potential". Strong operations professional with a Master's Degree focused in Project Management from Shaheed Zulfikar Ali Bhutto . Amy Hood. Much longer if new leadership comes from outside MS. Don't perform flawlessly to the above 70+ pieces of feedback only to see the churn above you. For context, I have always been "exceeded" or "high achieved", If you want to dig a bit more around job titles which gives you an idea of someones level or the dispersion of a team, remember that the title you see in Outlook is not the real title, its just the address book title. What now? I was always righteously indignant when I encountered asshats and incompetence and I would rail against the losers to anyone who would listen, and then I would do whatever it took to drive my agenda through to completion.I focused 100% on producing vast quantities of superior quality work -- which endeared me to my management chain and opened up a crap-ton of doors at those early levels. After all, if you think you are already ready, and your manager doesn't, there is probably some way you can improve that you don't understand -- this is something you want to figure out.6. IBM pulled themselves out of their decline by focusing on their customers. Thrive on it! In general, these designations are based on rank, with the highest director position being the executive director or director of operations. Most are management types whose only skill is sucking up. kc. To anonymous who has spent 3.5 years in role at MS. You're already blacklisted. Senior Account Executive | Director | Sales & Marketing. If I'm going to be late delivering something, give folks advance notice.3. Your Recently Promoted L63 Peers: let's say you have at least one peer that in the past year or so has been promoted to L63. Wonderful. Pass me by and I will be leaving in the next few months). I left eight years after that when I realized that L66 wasn't going to happen for me.The bottom line: If your boss isn't pushing for you, get them on your side or leave the group. There is always a manager who understands the underleveling of Office and old-Windows (hello Sinofsky - promos for all who stuck around regardless of merit!) The person who puts you up for promotion and has promotion conversations with your skip level. Even with all good intentions, they can even be ineffective mentors (although I still highly recommend the mentoring program, as long as you change your mentor every year). If you do not market yourself well, even if you are a superstar here at MSFT, your achievements might just go unrecognized (or they might be selectively recognized). Obviously, this is advice that you may not apply during the current hiring freeze, but keep it on your mind for the future.- At times the focus on the level may not be the most important strategy in the long term. I basically just hoped that hard work would get me ahead. There certainly doesn't seem to be any shortage of people wanting in. "Next, I believe this post will most likely be useful for those who entered MS as intern/college hires. Is there a way one can dream of getting promoted in this noxious environment which is the oabg? Thanks to Mini for the great information. The downside to this view within the Microsoft culture is that you are always expected to keep climbing the ladder even if you are content with your current job and a solid performer in it. i've been hearing this.. you know when you are about to cut a small feature and do balancing in your sprint/milestone essentially this is happening at VP level. :). I joined Microsoft at L63 in Office and found it to be a freakshow of people NOT working together but understanding that no team work was better for getting a promotion FAR better than I did having come from the Valley. L62 is supposed is own the room of L60s, L65 own the room of L63s, and so on. Mine is inside sales Azure. Help make it more accurate by, Get started with your Free Employer Profile, average salary for a Senior Director is $170,707 per year in United States, The Ultimate Job Interview Preparation Guide. Then they start pinging the manager on why and putting pressure on them to do something, move them up or out. Barring extraordindary circumstances each year you will get the "welcome to our group" evaluation.Don't forget the aunts and uncles. I know to a certain degree that's all of us - but, if you're dealing with 2-3 a year or every other year then you need to get out. But power plays are at work and I get smacked when I try and take on extra work.So my question to the more experienced is this - how does one get the attention of management when they are focused on their own problems, their favorite underlings (of which I am not one), and when there is not enough work to go around? How you perform in interview is going to matter on whether you get proper mapping or not. As HR Director, Claire helps drive the outstanding business impact, cultural transformation, and growth of Microsoft in the UK. If I was 65/66 material, why did they wait until I gave notice to offer me the promotion? Find a way to make or save them money. But on balance mgrs at MS get things right a lot more often than they get them wrong or we wouldnt be one of the most highly capitalized companies in the history of biz. I am not saying the manager is trying to sabotage, but when push comes to shove will you get the impactful project. Make them successful at their job. I'm interested in reading your perspective and what advice you'd give to someone new to the company looking at a career path similar to your own. -- Business Transformation Executive with demonstrated experience in managing and implementing large transformation programs through all levels of the organization in order to build growth, grab new market opportunities or reduce costs.<br><br>- Building on Solid experience in Functional roles (Sales, Marketing, Delivery Operations) to drive those programs <br>- Sales Oriented Business .